Single vs. Double

[Brant Bishop]

I have spent a lot of time thinking about this topic over the last 5+ years. I have had years worth of phone calls, well months at least, definately weeks worth .

The single vs. double issue shouldn't be an issue at all. Here is is the story as it was told to me by Gus. This fed was formed in the northwest in 1997 when gus left the USPF. It voted on then by the members who initially formed the federation to allow 2-ply bench shirts but only 1-ply squat and DL suits for the DL. That should be the end of it. Their never should have been a question when the new polys came along. This was a 2-ply shirt fed therfore 2-ply shirts should be allowed. As we know that is not how it happened. We now must vote on this issue again. As of right now the vote is approx. 120s single - 30s double. The voting will continue till June. I myself vote for double even though I haven't used one in competition. This is a hobby for most all of us but for Gus it is his life and money. The bottom line is money. You want to have the most lifters lifting in your federation to make money. You are going to get the most lifters by having 2-ply across the board. When I first started lifting, my training partners put me in a single ply EHPHD shirt. I still have it hanging in my closet. They weren't going to put me in a 2-ply that would have been stupid. As I got stronger and learned how to use a shirt better I graduated to a 2-ply EHPHD then to a DD. Now I use a single ply Titan but if given the chance to use a double I'm all over it. Here is what is I think is going to happen when we go single and remove the double that are allowed we will loose lifters, maybe not many but we still loose.

For those that think there is a possibilty of leaving things like they are, there's not. It's either going to be all single ply or all double ply. No more of split down the middle.

[Ryano]

I haven't voted yet, but am leaning towards all 2ply. Some of the records now have been set with 2ply shirts, so if it goes all single ply, how do you remove those lifts? There is probably no record of which lifts were in 2ply anyway. If it does go 2ply, you can still lift in single. Right now, my best lift is in a single, but I still give the 2ply shirts a ride occasionally. I would just like to have the option of using either. I will continue to lift WABDL no matter what the vote(unless it goes all RAW).

[Brant Bishop]

Don't worry, RAW isn't even an option.

[Hudson]

The fact that the original rules are not the end of it simply indicates that lifters do indeed have a voice in WABDL.

I'm of the opinion that those of us who hold leadership positions within the organization should not post our position on this issue on public forums such as this. I believe we should let the grassroots membership make up their own minds on the issue with as little influence from us as possible. That is why I've kept quiet about my preference, though those who know me well know how I will vote.

I will have to respectfully disagree with Brant Bishop, however. It's not always about bringing the most lifters and the most money into the federation. One might be even more concerned with issues such as safety, particularly for young and/or novice lifters. One might also give some thought to how our lifters' benches are ranked. While most of their lifts are done in single-ply shirts, their lifts are ranked among double-ply lifts. Is this a state or affairs that we want to see continue or not? These issues are certainly worthy of consideration as members make their decisions.

[cwfarmer]

I voted single-ply, because basically thats all I've used at this point.I would like to try the super phenom at some point (which is not wabdl legal anyway). I think the wabdls shirt restriction are great the way they are now to be honest and I kinda am interested what and if any world records have been set in existing double-ply shirts now.I meen if you are the guy using the double phenom or double-denim and it's your current world record and the next thing you know is your told "you can't use that shirt anymore"is that fair?.. Does the record now have an asterick next to it?? I definitly respect the time and effort used in getting to learn to use a double-ply and hopefully someday I'll use one at a different feds meet. But I like the WABDLS and its structure so I would always be a member regardless of what other fed I competed in.I don't think you'd lose members Mr.Bishop, except maybe the guy who's got the existing double-ply shirt record,lol. Actually you might pick more members up because there's alot of guys that like to see there rankings.The numbers will speak for themselves and I think it will be more than decisive.

[George Phipps]

Matt LaMarque's 800 world record was done in a double ply Karin's, and Ken's Millray's 242 world Masters reord was also done in a Karin's double denim. I am sure there are more, but what happens to these great lifts, are they dropped from the record books, or is there a note saying these were done in a double ply shirt. What about all of the shirts that these guys have bought over the years, double denim's are very costly shirts and now they could be voted out. I don't like it one bit.

As far as Brant or anyone else who has a position of leadership in WABDL speaking out on this issue, why should'nt Brant speak out? The last time I looked there are very few state leaders who don't compete in WABDL, therefore they have just as much right to speak up as anyone does.

I my humble opinion if Powerlifting Watch was never created we would not be having this discussion. It is there screwed up ranking system that is causing this situation. They refuse to rank WABDL lifters according to the equipment they use. There is no secret who uses what in WABDL. Every time I pick up a Powerlifting USA it tells you what the lifter used to get a new record. Everyone knows that Matt's great benches at 242 and 220 were done in Double Denim, but they throw everyone else into the double ply status even though they know Steve Wong was wearing a single ply F6. It is Powerlifting Watches fault not WABDL's. One other thing is that the WABDL rules on double ply, all double ply shirts have to have a closed neck, well I can tell you first hand using a double ply denim with an closed neck in terrible. Everyone else who uses double ply shirts, with the exception of the GPC, allows open back shirts. Open back double denims or poly's are a whole different world from a closed neck shirt, and they should not be classified the same way.

George Phipps
Reno, Nv

[Hudson]

George, I never suggested that Brant didn't "have the right" to express his position on the issue. I wrote the following:

"I'm of the opinion that those of us who hold leadership positions within the organization should not post our position on this issue on public forums such as this. I believe we should let the grassroots membership make up their own minds on the issue with as little influence from us as possible. That is why I've kept quiet about my preference, though those who know me well know how I will vote."

As you can see above, this is simply my suggestion, which I'm sure you would agree I have the right to make. Nothing in what I wrote could possibly be construed to constitute a claim that Brant doesn't not also have the right to express his view. Of course he has that right. My concern was that certain voices may have more influence than others and I would hope that members would vote their conscience on this issue without being swayed by arguments by those of us who are in leadership roles. I have voluntarily chosen to refrain from making an explicit statement on the question based on this thinking. Brant is absolutely free to make his own choice; I never suggested that he wasn't free to do so.

I also pointed out that I believe the vote to be a good thing; it is evidence that Gus cares about his lifters' opinions and that WABDL members have a voice in the federation.

[LISAMILLER]

The thing is the 2 plys that are allowed in WABDL are limited. There is no grid stitching and all the goodys. I do the same in a single ply as I do my karins WABDL approved 2 ply. Now if I were to wear a all out 2 ply I'm hitting more like 50-75lb on my bench. Its a little harder for people to just switch a shirt when they are so used to working in that material.

[Brant Bishop]

Even though I would like to see 2-ply, MORE importantly I want to see the federation unified. As others have stated in on Powerlifting Watch, our equipement rule are confusing. I'm still gonna lift when my shoulders finally let me . I'm still gonna stay the state chairman . I'm still gonna promote this federation the best I can . I just want it to be one way or the other NOT both. Yes, John and I are good friends and talk a lot about WABDL and how to make it better.

[Shawn Rainey]

I personally Think double would be good as the association started that way. and also it does alow the shirts to last longer and we all hate having to replace these exspensive shirts. I would rather pay 30 to 40 more for a double and have it last alot longer than the singles that strech out much faster and break down much faster. but I do understand how alot of people dont want the records to just get out of hand. so I do understand bolth sides to this.